Comments on: Why I can’t get my head around tableless CSS http://www.garrettbartley.com/2006/04/12/why-i-cant-get-my-head-around-tableless-css/ Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:19:42 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Rial http://www.garrettbartley.com/2006/04/12/why-i-cant-get-my-head-around-tableless-css/comment-page-1/#comment-10 Rial Wed, 03 May 2006 14:21:28 +0000 http://newest.phragmunkee.com/2006/04/12/why-i-cant-get-my-head-around-tableless-css/#comment-10 I prefer scalable CSS if tables aren't an easy option. I hate the static-sized sites, it makes for horible viewing on my 1600x1200 20" monitor. Heck, google uses centered tables, and it turns out nicely for any res. I prefer scalable CSS if tables aren’t an easy option. I hate the static-sized sites, it makes for horible viewing on my 1600×1200 20″ monitor. Heck, google uses centered tables, and it turns out nicely for any res.

]]> By: Garrett http://www.garrettbartley.com/2006/04/12/why-i-cant-get-my-head-around-tableless-css/comment-page-1/#comment-9 Garrett Thu, 13 Apr 2006 02:29:45 +0000 http://newest.phragmunkee.com/2006/04/12/why-i-cant-get-my-head-around-tableless-css/#comment-9 Perhaps one of the biggest problems I have with moving to CSS page layouts (besides the obvious frustrations of learning the intricasies of it) is that most of the pages/applications that I develop do required a lot of data to be displayed. Users want it all right there in front of them so they can see it at first glance. That falls under the usability category, I guess. What I think I need is some sort of CSS page construction for table wizards type of tutorial, book, or how-to. Side-by-side examples of table vs. CSS with less content and other garbage that you'd have to sift through to learn by example from viewing the source on sites. I'm on the verge of writing and re-writing several applications at work and on personal projects, and I want to try and bring them up to standards. I'm quite familiar with using CSS and divs to style things and do a little bit of position, but entire page structures complete elude me. I did notice the ChattaBlogs layout, of course. But the first iteration of the front page was pure tables in all their glory. "One tag to rule them all. One tag to find them. One tag to bring them all and in the darkness, bind them." Perhaps one of the biggest problems I have with moving to CSS page layouts (besides the obvious frustrations of learning the intricasies of it) is that most of the pages/applications that I develop do required a lot of data to be displayed. Users want it all right there in front of them so they can see it at first glance. That falls under the usability category, I guess.

What I think I need is some sort of CSS page construction for table wizards type of tutorial, book, or how-to. Side-by-side examples of table vs. CSS with less content and other garbage that you’d have to sift through to learn by example from viewing the source on sites.

I’m on the verge of writing and re-writing several applications at work and on personal projects, and I want to try and bring them up to standards. I’m quite familiar with using CSS and divs to style things and do a little bit of position, but entire page structures complete elude me.

I did notice the ChattaBlogs layout, of course. But the first iteration of the front page was pure tables in all their glory.

“One tag to rule them all. One tag to find them. One tag to bring them all and in the darkness, bind them.”

]]> By: James http://www.garrettbartley.com/2006/04/12/why-i-cant-get-my-head-around-tableless-css/comment-page-1/#comment-8 James Thu, 13 Apr 2006 00:27:12 +0000 http://newest.phragmunkee.com/2006/04/12/why-i-cant-get-my-head-around-tableless-css/#comment-8 really anything is possible with CSS and DIVs you just have yet to quite get the concept I'm sure, I was annoyed with it to at first but it starts making sense when you learn all the tricks involved. really anything is possible with CSS and DIVs you just have yet to quite get the concept I’m sure, I was annoyed with it to at first but it starts making sense when you learn all the tricks involved.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.garrettbartley.com/2006/04/12/why-i-cant-get-my-head-around-tableless-css/comment-page-1/#comment-7 Anonymous Wed, 12 Apr 2006 22:18:22 +0000 http://newest.phragmunkee.com/2006/04/12/why-i-cant-get-my-head-around-tableless-css/#comment-7 It's all about usability, and I'm not talking pure geek usability (and I'm not using that in a negative sense) but the broad way in which we process information. We need a coherent narrative, a flow of the information that makes intuitive sense that we can grasp quickly and easily. CSS and fixed-width designed is oriented around this fact. If you've got content that needs a crap ton of room (which you'd agree is rare) then there ARE ways to do it in an expeditious fashion in css, the problem is many developers don't know how to do so, or know how to do it quickly and easily with tables. But most websites and their content don't need this much room, in fact, to give it that much room creates a counter-intuitive, difficult to use page setup, where the eyes don't know where to land and the user doesn't know what they're supposed to be looking at. Order, in other words, is a very good thing and css does this wonderfully. As for the 800x600 and "everyone is doing it so its not creative thing" that's two seperate issues. 800x600 (or 1028x768) is the most common browser size, or, its the one that doesn't take up your entire damn monitor. I don't want a website that takes up my entire monitor, I want it focused and easy to use. Don't even get me started on the millions of users out there on laptops who don't have the 17" powerbook (heck, I've got the 12"). Which is why so many people are doing it that way. Its like building a house with walls, a car with four wheels, or any kind of structure for that matter. As the web has matured as a medium the chaotic no boundaries of the pre-dot-bomb era are now understood as the web & web design in its infant phases. The creativity comes with what you do inside of that structure, your color pallete, the little touches, the way you treat images, the type/font you chose, etc. etc. That's not to say amazing things can't be done with flash and the magicians at Tubatmic with flashtime, but thats not (as you'd agree) the way you'd want to go with organizing the vast amount of content available on the billions of individual websites out there. You want order, coherence, and usability; and standards based fixed-width CSS just happens to be (currently) the best way of going about that. Oh, and thanks for the little Coptix reference. Did you notice that Chattablogs is tableless css too? It’s all about usability, and I’m not talking pure geek usability (and I’m not using that in a negative sense) but the broad way in which we process information. We need a coherent narrative, a flow of the information that makes intuitive sense that we can grasp quickly and easily.

CSS and fixed-width designed is oriented around this fact. If you’ve got content that needs a crap ton of room (which you’d agree is rare) then there ARE ways to do it in an expeditious fashion in css, the problem is many developers don’t know how to do so, or know how to do it quickly and easily with tables.

But most websites and their content don’t need this much room, in fact, to give it that much room creates a counter-intuitive, difficult to use page setup, where the eyes don’t know where to land and the user doesn’t know what they’re supposed to be looking at. Order, in other words, is a very good thing and css does this wonderfully.

As for the 800×600 and “everyone is doing it so its not creative thing” that’s two seperate issues. 800×600 (or 1028×768) is the most common browser size, or, its the one that doesn’t take up your entire damn monitor. I don’t want a website that takes up my entire monitor, I want it focused and easy to use. Don’t even get me started on the millions of users out there on laptops who don’t have the 17″ powerbook (heck, I’ve got the 12″).

Which is why so many people are doing it that way. Its like building a house with walls, a car with four wheels, or any kind of structure for that matter. As the web has matured as a medium the chaotic no boundaries of the pre-dot-bomb era are now understood as the web & web design in its infant phases.

The creativity comes with what you do inside of that structure, your color pallete, the little touches, the way you treat images, the type/font you chose, etc. etc. That’s not to say amazing things can’t be done with flash and the magicians at Tubatmic with flashtime, but thats not (as you’d agree) the way you’d want to go with organizing the vast amount of content available on the billions of individual websites out there. You want order, coherence, and usability; and standards based fixed-width CSS just happens to be (currently) the best way of going about that.

Oh, and thanks for the little Coptix reference. Did you notice that Chattablogs is tableless css too?

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